[00:00:00] Hey everyone. Welcome to Fostering Excellence in Agility, the podcast. I'm your host, competitor, coach, and mentor Megan Foster. I help agility enthusiasts focus on the small details of training and behavior while still having a clear understanding of their big picture goals. Join me as I take you through key elements of dog agility training, competing and teaching, and how you can take action today to start improving your skills within the sport.
Let's get started. Today I have a special guest for you all. Sarah Espinoza. SoCal invested most of her first 30 years into a passion for horses. In 2016, she decided to rehome her last horse and devote herself to agility. Instead, she quickly fell in love with international style agility, and set her sights on one day competing in Europe.
Sarah's first agility dog suffered a career ending injury in [00:01:00] 2017, retiring before he completed his novice titles. She started over with Agility Dog 1.5, a working Kepi puppy named Z. In September of 2017, Sarah and Z competed in their first national competition at Cino Sport in 2021. In 2022, they were fortunate enough to attend World Team Tryouts, the West Coast Open, the US Open, and the European open team tryouts vastly expanding their skills as a team, a lifelong writer and obsessive nerd.
Sarah shares her story of pursuing excellence in agility on her Agility Odyssey Facebook page where she loves to discuss both the smallest of training details and the largest of life lessons. Sarah joins me to discuss the training we did together for Z's start line behavior in agility. We covered a lot of details, and Sarah drops.
So many gems during this conversation. I know you'll love it. Here it is. Hey, Sarah, welcome to the podcast. [00:02:00] Hello. And thank you for having me. I'm super excited to be here. Definitely. I am excited to talk to you today about the work that we did together, uh, with Z's agility performance. But before we dive into that, please tell us a little bit about yourself and z and you know, what's going on in your lives right now.
Well, um, I've been involved in agility for about seven years. Um, I came to agility after many, many years of riding and training horses, which I know is like not an uncommon background for agility people, . Z was the first puppy I acquired. Four Agility. She's just turned five in September. Um, I've known her since she was three days old, and she's just, I mean, she's like the most perfect thing.
I never [00:03:00] knew I needed . She's just amazing. And I'm having the time of my life. I mean, she's making my dreams come true , basically, which is so fun. And she's just the most fun pet to have around as well. And we are just really enjoying our journey together. Awesome. Well, I absolutely love working with you too.
And so let's dive in and talk about why you initially reached out to me for one-to-one coaching. What was the goal you hoped to achieve by working with me? , the goal was to have a start line performance that I could count on to actually, um, exist at high pressure competitions. Um, yeah, that's a popular skill to have.
Yep. Um, [00:04:00] I had, had, we had already kind of been on a bit of a journey with her start line because, um, we started to kind of have some problems with it in 2021 and I kind of got it back right before we went to sinus sport, um, in October, 2021. And then it completely fell apart at sinus sport. So like by the last rotten of the weekend, which Russ was Grand Prix finals, I was like, I'm really glad that there's no lead out required because I definitely don't have one
Hmm. Um, So after that I had kind of, cuz it, that was October, 2021. And if I remember right, I contacted you in April of 2022. Yes. Because I did kind of go through some months of fixed, like fixing it and I had kind of gotten something back. So we had gotten something back that looked like, [00:05:00] um, a, I remember thinking that one of the reasons I contacted you was that there was a consistent number of errors over time.
So it's like we sort of had a start line performance, but it was like maybe one in every four or five runs there was an error . I see. Yes. Um, and it was just stable like that regardless of what I was doing. Um, and it was very clear to me that I was like holding onto it by like a thread and I was just, a hundred percent certain that the next time I went some to something like sinus sport, I, it was just gonna fall apart again.
That's, yeah. That's fair. So let's paint a picture really quick since this is a podcast and people are listening. So what did your stay look like when it was successful versus when it wasn't? Mm-hmm. . So [00:06:00] when it was successful, it looked like, I mean, so I leave her in a sit. That was how I started with her start line.
It's still, it's still how she knows her start line. Um, and, but she tends to get really low. So when I'm leading out, she gets like, really, she would really get low and she moves. Doesn't really like lean over her front feet. And it would just, when I was, the successes I was having then I was really staring at her really hard.
So I was leading out slowly keeping like a, like watching her, like a hawk to make sure she was maintaining her criteria, which at that point we had agreed that the criteria was behind. Pause are not allowed to move. Front paws can move, but hiin paw cannot. Um, and it, but it was very tenuous. And also there was some experimentation on my part of like, maybe it will help her if I talked to her the [00:07:00] whole time, , um, which like didn't have any measurable impact as far as I could tell.
Um, and then versus what I would've considered an error at that point was just if the Hyde pauses moved. So a lot of times what I was seeing, how this all kind of started going downhill in 2021. was, she would get and not really low sit, and then at some distance away when I was some distance away from her, she would sit up and in the process of sitting up straighter would also move forward like a foot
Okay. Um, so that was kind of like, I would always consider that an error. One thing that I like, one of the reasons I contacted you is because we, over the course of this whole problem, ha have, have had almost no instances where she's like, actually what most people would call [00:08:00] full on breaking her start line.
Like starting to run . Mm-hmm. when I'm not ready. But, uh, because I was always catching it and I was willing to fix and go or you know, whatever. When I saw those little breaks and criteria, even though we could still run. . Um, but even though I was like willing to go back and make those corrections, it still was not solving the problem.
Um, and that was one reason that I was like, I need something more, because I've basically done like the standard, what everybody says to do. Like I've done it better than most people are ever willing to do, and it's still just not getting the result. . Yeah. Uh, I think the, the one sentence that I have to highlight in everything that you just said was that you were defining errors by the change in her position on the start line and not full on breaking [00:09:00] and Right.
I want to highlight that because I do think it definitely contributed to, um, the process and what we were able to accomplish because she didn't have. this huge history of full on breaking mm-hmm. . And so I think that that is really important for every behavior. So huge kudos in that department for sure.
Yeah. Um, yeah, and I'll say I definitely in the course of this whole story have had plenty of experiences where I, like, I've, you know, I've even seen like the judge like shaking their head like, what is happening here? Why did you just go back to the talk when when there was like, she could have run? You know?
But, um, so I definitely have felt [00:10:00] like a lot of that level of like, people like being like, what is she doing? Yes, , um, . But to me it was like, I, I don't even know. I mean, I've always started from the beginning of Z's trialing career. It's always been really important to me to maintain clarity for her. And another thing that's been really important to me is, especially with this start line, cuz I've had so much opportunity to think about, like, what exactly is the goal that I'm trying to achieve here?
And a big part of it is I do not want every run to start with conflict and tension and like me being nervous or me yelling at her to keep her in a stay. Like, it's like I just don't want my agility experience to feel like that. So it's like, even if I could maybe get through to runs like that, , it kind of ruins the whole experience for me and I'm not willing to go there.[00:11:00]
Well, . I would like everyone to stop and applaud you for that one. , stop whatever you're doing and bring out the applause, because I think a, again, let's just highlight that for a second, that you don't want to start every agility run fighting with her. Yeah. Over this pretty critical skill that you need on the majority of courses.
This is going to be a lifelong thing, for her career long thing. Yeah. We don't, we don't wanna start Jill, that way. So I completely agree. Everything that you just explained about defining the errors and, uh, wanting to avoid conflict, those were the things that made me excited about working with you. But just, you touched on it a little bit.
How, how maintaining criteria was your top priority and [00:12:00] how you never really let it. Degrade further than the changing of the position. Mm-hmm. , but what other things had you tried before we started working together?
I, I'm trying to think like, so I will say after the whole sinus sport experience, because I, so I, after sinus sport, I came home and I gave her a month off. Like we didn't trial for over a month. And I was really hoping that like what happened in Tennessee would stay in Tennessee , but that was not the case.
like first trial back, it was very clear that I was like, okay, we just don't have a star line at all anymore. Um, and at that point I went into, so in training I started looking for ways that I could. , um, basically like trigger that error. Um, so like one thing I know we did [00:13:00] at that point was I did a lot of like putting her in a sit and throwing a toy past her.
Um, because I could, I could cause that same error of the little scoot by doing that. Um, so at that time I kind of went through a process of basically looking for all the ways I could maybe cause her to do that error in training so that I could help explain, or explain to her that that was no longer acceptable to me.
Um, so that looked, I mean like I did a lot of the throwing the toy over her. Like cuz we do a lot, at that time especially, we were doing a lot of training like when I wasn't even home, like when I was traveling for work. So it was a lot of times like we didn't even have agility equipment to work with. . Um, but I also remember doing things like setting her in front of a tunnel and then like, I would run out and like jump over the tunnel.
Like sometimes I could get her to do it by doing that . Yeah. Okay. Um, or I remember one session where I got it by running out and then [00:14:00] hitting the tunnel, like for, you know, it's like little, I just looked for every possible way I could find to tempt her to make that mistake in training. Um, and then basically after I had kind of explained that to her, I took that back to trials.
I remember there was one trial I did in December of 2021 that was like the most painful experience, of my life at an agility trial because we just EOD the whole weekend. Um, and in most cases it was taking me like three. Repetitions to get something that I was willing to reward . Wow. Um, because she had really gotten to where she lines up by coming through my legs, and at that point she had gotten to, as soon as I would step away from her, like as I was move tip, like moving my one leg away from her, she would scoot.
So it was like, just to get past that point, [00:15:00] um, it felt like, it's funny, this is video is amazing because it felt like this is awful. I'm standing here in front of everyone forever asking her over and over and over again for this thing is so painful. And then watching the video later, it was never more than three repetitions that I had to ask for in any one run.
But still, I mean, that's like a lot . Yeah. And we don't get three shots at it, so it was a problem. No. Yeah. And. That weekend definitely made an impact. Like at our very next trial, the results were greatly improved. Um, but again, so I mean like next trial would've been like January, 2021, and then over those months from January to April just kind of was when I saw it stabilize in that.
Like she knows what she, she knows like, but she can't . Mm-hmm. . Yeah. I, yeah, I [00:16:00] remember, I remember specifically that conversation. Like, I don't think it's ever really, or I guess very rarely is it the act of staying that is the problem. It, they absolutely know how. Yeah. But it's, they can't. Right. First of all, like I said earlier, like I know that I've already maintained this criteria and trained this criteria better than most people do.
Um, and it's still not working. And um, I knew that it was like I had trained it, I trusted my training enough to know that it was like really clear to her what what was expected as why, the reason I reached out to you specifically was cuz I knew that you would kind of look at the whole picture of what was going on.
And I really had this feeling like I don't need to make it more clear to her, but I need to find some way to make this easier for her [00:17:00] so that she can do it. Yes. And so we did. Yes, we did . Okay. So then we started working together middle of May. Mm-hmm. after the world team tryout, so May, 2022. and we started working together on May 9th, which is my birthday.
May 9th, is my birthday present to myself. Perfect. Yes, it was indeed the gift, that case on giving. Um-huh. That's so neat. I didn't know that. . Um, so we did a huge history background, which we've just discussed, and there were some things that we had to take a look at. Mm-hmm. , like her outside the rig behaviors and how the correct [00:18:00] performance is getting reinforced and how the incorrect behavior is being taken care of, um, and how we're responding to those things.
Did anything surprise you about that initial training plan I put together?
I would say a couple things. You, you mentioned the outside the ring behaviors, which I felt like I was doing a pretty good job with the outside the ring behaviors, because I was taking care of her and managing it and not allowing like there to be any rehearsal of, of things like staring and barking and lunging or even vocalizing at all.
Like I was like, I knew that I didn't want any of that. Um, but I think the point that you, or the insight that you helped me see was like, I am [00:19:00] managing all of that, but I'm not actually helping her like process and cope with it on her own. . Yes. Um, so that was one of the things that we worked on is. And I remember we talked about prior to all of this, I was always like stashing her cookies away from the ring as you do.
And then I was always taking a handful of cookies with me to help me like manage her through that. Like waiting by the ring for three dogs. Um, and just kind of always either very high rate of reinforcement for being in a downstate or like asking her for behaviors and keeping her busy while she was, while we were near the ring.
And also very much minimizing the amount of time that we were near the ring as much as I could. Yeah, I think that's pretty common. It's really popular to mm-hmm. look [00:20:00] at it that way. So, we'll briefly kind of unpack that management piece and like you said, not, she didn't really know what to do with herself unless you were filling that time.
Right, right. And like I definitely hadn't taught her anything, any duration to like how to just wait in that situation. . Yeah. So she didn't, she didn't have the ability to give you that stillness behavior when she's outside the ring and obstacles aren't available to her. She didn't have that skill yet.
And she was telling you she couldn't do it inside the ring with obstacles in front of her and you know, readily available to her. So we had to connect those pieces a little bit. [00:21:00] Yes, yes. And I will say I'm, um, I guess I would say it's not like we have attained perfection in that realm. , um, especially around certain dogs, like there are some dogs that are now easy for her and other dogs that are still really hard for her.
Just kind of depends on the energy that that dog is bringing out on course . Um, but we definitely come a long way with it. And one thing that really did surprise me when we started working on that was that there was actually a lot of progress that was made really quickly when I just tried . Right. You gave her a choice.
You gave her a chance to make a decision. Mm-hmm. . And she's like, oh, okay. Right. I was very convinced that that was kind of [00:22:00] insurmountable and mm-hmm. . . It really wasn't. I mean like, like I said, it's still not perfect. I mean, I still look enviously at my friends' dogs who just don't seem to care about watching dogs running agility
Yeah, same. But it's definitely come a long way and it was not nearly as insurmountable as I thought it was for sure. And I suspect a little bit of, again, all of that management, while it didn't necessarily train the behaviors that we ended up needing, you weren't fighting against a long reinforcement history of her staring at vocalizing at kind of getting dance feet at other dogs, so, mm-hmm.
back to that, you knew what you didn't want to see, and you were very good at keeping the unwanted [00:23:00] behaviors from happening. . It was just that next level of, okay, now how do I make it very clear what I want to see from her? Mm-hmm. , I think that was the main focus of everything we did together. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
kind of moving from management to truly trained. Yes. Mm-hmm.
did anything else surprise you? Anything else about the outside the ring behaviors? Um, not anything else about the outside the ring behaviors, but there was one other piece that really surprised me about the training plan that we went forward with . And I'm just, I'm sure you can kind of remember the look on my face when you told me that you wanted me to lead out without looking at her.
Yes. I was hoping that's what you were going to say.
Cause I know that the first thought that ran through my head was, you've got to be crazy. Like mm-hmm. . [00:24:00] How, how does that work? Like how am I supposed to know what she's doing back there? ? Yeah. So yeah, I told, so you, back to that original picture, you were staring at her like a hawk. You were, you know, observing every muscle movement that she was making.
And I said, Sarah, you have to knock that off. We have to just look away. And that was, that was hard. It was very hard. . And so that was important for me as well. So everything kind of has come full circle. Uh, when agility began, all we had to reference was how we walked away from our dogs and say, competitive obedience, which is of course, Not looking at them.[00:25:00]
And then as agility kind of evolved and you know this whole where you're looking and connection and you should always be kind of looking in the dog's general direction became a thing that kind of became the go-to with the start line as well. That we have to be watching them as we walk away from them, but also
the dogs get the majority of information from our faces just as they like when they live with us. They're, they're learning to watch our faces the more. importance that we put on teaching them verbal cues. They're learning to watch our faces. Um, you know, my, my own dogs, and you've probably experienced this as well, can try to anticipate what I'm going to say based on the way I inhale or if I open my mouth a certain way.
They [00:26:00] are masters at observing at our muscle movements. So what you were attempting to do, , she was a thousand percent doing it. So she was able to anticipate everything that you were about to do because she could see your face and mm-hmm. . That has also been a big change in my, in myself and raising my own puppy in this sport, and she really wants to go.
And how much easier it is for the dogs to understand. , if they are not looking at me, I have no reason to think about moving. Mm-hmm. , she'll always look at me before she gives me information. Yeah. And that's, that's where we went with that. Yeah. And I think that that [00:27:00] was huge. Like, I mean both the out, also the outside of the ring behaviors, but those two pieces to me, when I look back at it, I'm like, this is how we made it easier for her.
So, I mean, because when I would watch her or when I would see the way she was behaving on the start line, when I was leading out staring at her the whole time, it's like she's spending that entire time like twitching and hovering and I'm like, well no, I wonder you can't stay in that position for very long because like Right.
She was at the ready the entire time in me moment. It's going to be now. And the. Teapot was just bubbling over . The steam was pouring out. Yes. Yeah. And I, I had had this thought, um, that, you know, I'm like, I don't, I would think to her like, I don't want to make you wait there so long, but it takes me a long time to get where I'm going, but I have to stare at you the whole time to [00:28:00] make sure that you're still there,
And like, that was just, I mean, it was this catch 22 kind of thing that I'm like, I'm sure this would be easier to, for her if I could get out to where I was going faster. But I can't because I can't trust her to stay where she is. It was this vicious cycle. And I, I also remember you asking me how do I know if she is staying or not, mm-hmm.
And it was. . Again, it's this like, well when you turn and look at her and release her, if she's there, you're gonna release her. And if she's not, you're not going anywhere. like, your runs over. There's no saving this because again, we're, you know, upholding both of you to this high level of criteria. Mm-hmm.
now you don't have these decisions to make, you know, if she were to just bolt off the start line, [00:29:00] you don't have to make a decision about that. Right. You know how to react. Mm-hmm. or if you turn to look at her and she is really low to the ground or she is standing or she's just not exactly where you left her, you have a way to work through that.
Yes. Mm-hmm. , but you've got one moment to react, not the entire length of the lead out to react. Mm-hmm. . Yep. Okay. So. . The other big piece was, of course, how we introduced a lot of different
release cues for her, so it wasn't always go forward. Mm-hmm. , we used position changes and reinforcement behind [00:30:00] her and we built that skill up so that we had ways to select for the ideal start line. Do you wanna talk about that? Yes, I, well, and the first thing I wanna say is, of course, I've had a lot of people, uh, for the last some months ask me questions about what I did about her start line, um, and to some degree,
It is tempting to me to, the first thing that always comes to mind is the biggest thing that we changed me is that whole piece of not staring at her and having that clarity of when she can expect more information. But it's also very clear to me that that piece doesn't work with everything else that we built without everything else that we built around it.
Correct. Like you can't just go [00:31:00] out and decide, I'm just gonna not look at her and without the rest of everything that we worked on. So for one thing, I always look back at that the months before I started working with you, all that time that I spent really making that criteria, like hyper clear to her was not wasted because that was helpful in the end.
Yes. Um, you know, she had that really clear, clear picture of what I was. Looking for her to do, wasn't just, oh, well, stop looking at her, and all your problems are solved. Right? It only brought more clarity to the robust set of behaviors you already had and continued to build. So it, it will provide clarity, but if what you're providing clarity to isn't also fluent, [00:32:00] it probably won't help.
Mm-hmm. . So there was a huge amount of fluency built around her ability to go from a sit to a stand, a sit to a down, a down to a sit down to stand. All of those different position changes at a distance. Mm-hmm. and with obstacles in front of her. Yeah. So that, yeah, go ahead. Yeah. So that, um, It's like I, the piece that was really important is we don't want her to think as soon as Sarah reconnects, then we go, it's like as soon as Sarah reconnects, then more information is coming.
So that correct? I know. It's how you explained it to me. That's what I adopted is, this is the concept I'm trying to explain to her. Um, and, and early on when we first started with the. because if I remember how this went, right, I mean it was literally [00:33:00] after you told me that you just have to go out and, and start leading out without looking at her.
Like, I, very soon after that went to a trial and was like, we're just gonna experiment and see what happens if I don't look at her . And it was pretty messy . Um, I'm pretty sure it got eliminated in the first three obstacles of those four runs. Every, every single one of them, , Uhhuh, . But she stayed . She did.
Um, you didn't know what to do with yourself after that moment, but, right. And there was a lot of messiness in terms of like, she wasn't at those four runs. And the only reason I even did that trial was cuz it was an ISD cup and I really wanted to support and show up, you know? Um, She didn't at any point in those four runs, like actually full on break her start line, but she was just moving around a bit and I was like, okay, well this is what we're starting with.
And then in like the month after that, we did all the work with the position [00:34:00] changes and the release to the toy behind you, and that was the piece that I needed to add the clarity to let me use that concept of there is no more information coming until I turn around and reconnect with you. Yeah, those were important pieces and they came together really quickly.
They did. That is another thing that surprised me with the position changes because I, it's not like I had never heard that idea because I listened to Cock Dog Radio, , , and it's been mentioned . Um, , but every time I had tried to experiment with it before it, it is another one of those things like, like the behaviors outside the ring that seemed insurmountable.
Like [00:35:00] regardless of the fact that she could do a sit to a down or sit to a stand in like a dozen other contexts, like you put her in the, on the start line and it's like she's never heard those words before. . Yeah. Um, and so whenever I had kind of attempted to work towards that, it was just like, there's just no way.
This is like a, a brick wall that I'm running into. Um, but you know, by the time I reached out to you and I reached the point that I was at that I was like, well, I need to fix this that, you know, you get to be more willing to put a little more effort in . Um, And what really surprised me is I remember going out to my field and working on this training and just thinking, you have to find what you can do, find what she can do and build on it.
So it's like [00:36:00] what kind of weird things can I show her that I might ask for A position change in this context that is something, and not even necessarily like that seems between what she can, what she can do like in the living room and what she can't do on the start line, but just something different that she can do.
yes. We did so much different , right? And it's like, not necessarily harder, just change it constantly. , right? And it's like we always, I think, want to feel like there's like this linear path . Mm-hmm. , but it's the key to, for z of kind of breaking through that brick wall that it seemed like we were running into was just like, forget about linear path or trying to make a step forward.
Just step in any direction that you can . And the more I showed her those kind of little different things, like, I mean, I [00:37:00] remember one day I just like put, I put a 15 foot tunnel out in like a really tight U and like put her in that little like cave . Yeah. I remember that. It was just like these little things to put more pressure on her or like do it on a table or, you know, it's just like the weird little things that I could think of to try and build on.
Um, and what surprised me is that it actually. . Once I started doing that, it actually progressed and came together way quicker than I thought. . Yeah. And it transferred to the trial beautifully. Even though you weren't, you were training alone in your yard. You weren't going places to train this. You didn't have dog show excitement around you, or you were off backpacking and you were doing it on the road, or [00:38:00] like you, I mean, that might have been like the most, or maybe, I think you actually said it was like the least arousing because she had no expectations of agility.
Mm. And yeah, I remember sessions where I was like doing this on a dirt road in the desert somewhere. . Yep. You're like, and even though go to practice, I remember I, I had kind of forgotten about that, but I actually like took a jump with me on that trip because I was like, well, I'm gonna wanna work on this homework while I'm on this camping trip.
Um, but of course she is like, well, yeah, there's a jump here, but this is not agility. So, but you know, it's like those are the really good splits that sometimes it's helpful to take your training on the road to weird places to accomplish . I agree. Because she need, she needed to be able to access those behaviors and those skills regardless of what's happening.
So even though it wasn't [00:39:00] the arousal settings that she's used to doing agility in, it still was giving her that concept of, oh, this might be asked of me anywhere, anytime. . Mm-hmm. , I need to take those files with me everywhere. All right. Mm-hmm. , I guess I'll, you know, prioritize those, you know, don't, don't just keep those as the online backup.
I need to keep a local file too, sort of thing. , yes. Those have to go with me. Um, mm-hmm. , I again, I just have to highlight that you, cuz I wanna steal it in the future that you, when you were talking about forgetting the linear path instead of focusing or, you know, getting stuck on wanting to progress forward and take a step forward.
You said take a step in any direction. Mm-hmm. and I'm stealing that, so thanks for saying that. You're welcome. . [00:40:00] That was brilliant. Um, okay. So there was a lot of things that we did and we were both just. in my head it was pretty high stakes because I was pretty sure that this was all going to work. But then I was also finding myself surprised at how quickly this was coming together.
Mm-hmm. . But was there anything that you were resistant to? I mean, other than the, like looking away from her, we talked about that. Um, yeah. Is there anything else that was like, Ooh, and you just kind of put your faith in me anyways? I think that we've already talked, I mean, because I think the position changes were like that and okay, it is totally like I just put my faith in you and also there is some aspect of like, I've invested a fairly large chunk of money and I am not gonna just not follow through on it[00:41:00]
So yeah. And that's what makes it high stakes for me too, is. . Yeah, you did. You invested, you're showing up, you're doing it. And, and part of me is like, oh my gosh, this has to work. Mm-hmm. and spoiler. It did work. It is working. . Um, so we, we talked a a little bit already about this, but let's just go over how you applied these ideas to all of the scenarios.
You, you just spent a little bit of time how you did the training differently and you did it on the road. Um, you also went to some seminars during this mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And how were you able to take the, the clean training plan and maintain your criteria and also still participate in the seminar? Yeah, I had one seminar that was a huge step.
I mean, like, it [00:42:00] was a huge part of this whole process. It was early in June, so like just maybe a month after we'd started working together. Um, and I'm fortunate enough, so seminar presenter was Jen Pinder and we have an ongoing relationship with her. So we have worked with her every six months since Zi was nine months old.
Um, she knows us as a team really well, and she knows my goals. And she actually, the last time I had seen her in January told me like, you cannot not have a starline Sarah . Yeah. Because at that seminar in January, I was playing around with the idea of a slingshot start, which I was kind of like, I mean, it would give me an option if I know that she's not gonna stay.
Yeah. And Jen was like, I mean, I see your point, but I know what your goals are and you have to have a start line. . Um, so what was nice about that was when I showed up at the seminar in [00:43:00] June, I just told her that I was working with you on this training plan. Um, I actually, what I went up to her with was, we're working on this plan.
So I would, you know, I would prefer not really use for start line. Like, so I had a nice, um, bit of an out that if I just put a Cato board out there, I can put her in a two on, two off on it. And like that is so much easier for her. So it's like, my thought for the seminar was like, just, let's just put the Cato board out so I don't have to think about it and we can just focus on what you normally do at a seminar.
Um, and I really, really appreciate Jen for saying you need to take this opportunity to work on your start line and work on this training plan that you have. , um, and that's what we did. And it was, it was a, we made a lot of progress in that two days just in my faith in that it was coming together. [00:44:00] Um, the seminar is at the same facility where we have our weekly classes, which, um, at that location Z is basically very similar to how she is at a trial in terms of her state of arousal and excitement about the agility.
So to be able to take it there and, and take up, I mean, it feels so uncomfortable to take up seminar time with this kind of thing. But Jen supported me and was like, go out there and wait for your five second delay. before releasing her . Um, the excruciating five seconds. I know . So it was, it was great opportunity.
So that in that seminar was the, I'm pretty sure one of the first times that I asked her to do position changes in an actual coursework context. And [00:45:00] we had some success with that. We also did things in that seminar, like, you know, taking the first part of my turn to actually use her start line and then run and then taking the next part of like, you know, like same turn, but just after we ran a little bit, then going back and doing the release to the toy behind her, um, or going to and doing like a longer delay on the next repetition.
Um, and it was really, really helpful for me to have a lot of experiences during that two days where I just kind of played with it and saw that the options were beginning to be there. So you were able to show her that. , it's the same situation. Mm-hmm. , but a different context, a similar arousal level to trialing.
It was an excellent split and you were able to give her a lot of different experiences. [00:46:00] So the, the thing that stood out to me and what you just said was that you didn't always start with a training rep where you send her backwards. That every now and then, her first rep, she got to run mm-hmm. . And that is a huge detail.
I think that's a really important detail when we're talking about ring sustainability, is that again, that the lead out is clear and the release to her is clear, but what she's being released to can be different every time. Mm-hmm. and that. . It's not some pattern of, oh, you're always gonna have a warmup run and then you're gonna have a real run.
And then , you're going to have these runs where you release her immediately, or wait two or three seconds, that it's always going to be different and that her behavior needs to stay the same. Mm-hmm. Hmm. , no matter what. [00:47:00] Mm-hmm. . Okay. And when you were competing, you did do some F E O where you brought the toy out, but you also did some competing during some of this process.
And that's not something I usually recommend. Mm-hmm. , but we talked about it and we had a plan and I trusted you to execute some plan. . . Yeah. I am. I'm thinking right now, specifically, The first. So like I said, shortly after I started working together, I went to that one ISSC Cup where we had the four runs and it, I just, I think we both kind of had agreed to just view that as data collection
Yes. Knowing that it was likely going to be a bit of a mess. Um, and then it was another, at least three weeks, probably longer until the next trial that I went to, which was the u uk I trial, um, which [00:48:00] is, so there's just so many options, that we might not be have like at a K C or something like that. Yeah.
Um, and I will also say I was really grateful the judge at that trial was Ashley Deacon and I did talk to him. I asked him if it was okay for me to do a fix and go and send her back to her leash and then be able to lead out again. Yes. Um, yeah, that was important. It was important because it allowed me to go in the ring as like, as a four competition run, knowing that I had that option.
Um, I never actually used that option, but it was important to know that I could have, um, yeah. And let, let's split that A apart, make that really clear. So the difference between f e o and then going in for competition [00:49:00] and using the fix and go with f e O, you can walk in with your toy mm-hmm. and the dog knows you have your toy.
Mm-hmm. versus when you walk in as intending to compete and use a fix and go. Now you've got a slightly, you know, different, you know, mental state, different everything. Maybe a little bit more nervous, and the toy isn't present. So that's a completely different picture to the dog as well. and your intent at this point was using the leash behind her, if she was in anything less than ideal position when you looked back at her.
Mm-hmm. . Yeah. So you were able to walk in, like you were going to compete, do your start line routine like you were gonna compete, move away from her, look, look back at her pause, and then that's when you were making your decision. Mm-hmm. , she's looking great. I'm [00:50:00] gonna let her run. Oops. She's lurking really low.
I'm gonna send her back to the leash. And you said you didn't have to actually send her back to her leash? I didn't. I I started that whole weekend, the first run of the weekend. I did f E O. , which was a little bit painful for me because it was speed stakes, which is one of like, at that time we were still in novice speed stakes and it's like if, if there's any run here that I could get the points from, it would be this one , but the lead out, I mean the lead out that was required to have a shot at success.
I was just like, I know that that's not fair. It is totally not fair for being to go in on this first run of the weekend and expect her to do that. Yeah. That was important too, that you maintained your expectations of what she was capable of. Yeah. And I know that was painful at time . It was. [00:51:00] Um, and that, so we did that one F E O and my whole plan.
Um, well, and we, you kind of touched on it earlier, like that the dog knows you have the toy, which I just wanna say, I mean, you, you told me or you encouraged me to do this. It's like, don't try to trick her that you don't have the toy , like . Make it clear. So yeah, from that point forward, whenever we've done f e o runs, like she's playing with the toy as we're going into the ring.
Like, cuz normally as part of our ring entry, she tugs on her leash. Um, nowadays when I'm doing f e o, she's playing with the toy as we're going into the ring, like in the place of her leash, if it was a four competition run. So it's like a hundred percent clear to her that this is different. Um, and the toy is in the ring with us.
Uh, and I just, I left the toy behind her. I led out the first lead out. I did not, I only went out as far as I thought she would be successful. And [00:52:00] then I sent her back to the toy. Um, second lead out, after I played with her, I went out to the point that I would've wanted to lead out to run with again, like you said, the plan that if I see anything less than ideal when I turn around, we'll just send her back to toy and that'll just, we'll, we'll play and celebrate and leave.
Um, but when I turned around, what I saw was ideal. So I, um, now that I'm, I'm like, is that what happened? I don't remember . How did I get the toy back? I think you, you did end up, like you had to make something up and then you had to set, like, you, you ended up making up some sequence and ran her back to the toy Yeah.
And then left or, or something like that. . I can't, I can't remember exactly what happened, but yeah, I mean I remember that I was able to, she was perfect on that second repetition and we, and I did reward her [00:53:00] with a little bit of running. Like that was important to me too, is I want her to know that the reward for the ideal performance is getting the thing that she really wants, which is the running.
Yes. Um, so yeah, but that went really well and it set us up for the rest of the weekend where it just got better and better. , I'm pretty sure that was the weekend where at the end of I post, I think the post that I made on Facebook was something to the effect of I either we're making progress on the start line or I found a stunt double to perform the start line because it was so different.
every time you. to compete, I would just kind, I would hold onto my phone just a little bit tighter because I was just waiting and waiting and waiting because, yeah, because that's just who I am. . But also, I was very invested in how this was going to go and it just [00:54:00] kept going well. Mm-hmm. , and, but did that change at any point?
Was there ever a time where it, like it went backwards? Does, did you have any doubts along the way or, mm-hmm. pretty steady progress forward. I wanna say one thing that was just kind of triggered by what you just said, that it just kept going well, which, when I think about that, , I, you and I am pretty sure we're both am like shocked and amazed,
And to me, that goes back to what I said at the beginning, that it wasn't that she needed more clarity. It was like we just need to make it easier for her to do the thing. Yeah. And I think that's why we saw this like big transformation that happened really quickly because she already understood so much and [00:55:00] it just needed to be easier for her to, to do it.
Um, yeah. So I should change what I said. It just kept getting easier for her. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And I, that just reminded me too of one of the things that I remember us talking about, which was that over time I had noticed her sometimes like sniffing the ground as I would lead out, like, you know, before we were working together.
I would see that little, I called it like, it's just a quirk, like as I leave her. Mm-hmm. , she like ducks, her head . And, um, that has kind of gone away mostly over the last some months since we've started doing this. And I can see now that it was, because that was just a stress thing. Like she was stressed about being under the pressure to do this thing that she knew she was struggling with.
And it was [00:56:00] literally, I mean, it was like sniffing. It was her, her sniffing, like some other dog might have walked away sniffing the ground. It's like, well, she wasn't gonna do that, but she was kind of like, um, and prior to us working together, I just wasn't willing to admit that that was a sign of stress.
Yeah. I, I do remember that. And I think it, it showed up like connected to if you were doing some coursework, and there was a mistake early on and she had to go back and do yet another start line. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. We saw a little bit of it there. Yeah. Mm-hmm. and or both in training. And there were a couple instances, instances at trials.
Um, like I, I'm remembering one, I think it might have been the same trial that we just were talking about where we made an error at Jump three and, and kind of like, [00:57:00] not my best moment, cuz if I had been thinking really clearly I would not have done this, but I took her back to the start line and set it all up again and I saw the sniffing happen.
Mm-hmm. and in, in retrospect I can look at it like it was a good thing I did that because that may helped make that clear to me that that's what was happening. Um Right. You, you definitely needed to see it and I definitely needed to see it to know for sure. Mm-hmm. and. . Luckily we didn't have to see it a hundred times before
We made the appropriate adjustments. Right, right. Um, but they're always telling us Yeah, aren't they? We just have to be willing to listen. Yes, absolutely. Um, yeah. So to go back to the other part of your question about were there ever any doubts [00:58:00] or when it went backwards or got difficult, um, what comes to mind for that is, and it's, it's fascinating to me the progression of this, but there was one trial, this was in October, um, when we went to Colorado for, it was U uk.
I, it wasn't a classic, but it was a really kind of fun u uk I trial. Um, and. Her position just suddenly changed , like up to that point. We had been having a pretty upright sit happening. Um, and I will say this is one piece that for me in my head, it's always been clear to me that where I'm at with z I'm like, I'm willing to let go of the idea of an upright sit.
I don't need an upright sit. I just need you to understand enough of this concept of what's happening that [00:59:00] I need you to wait where you are , right? Um, like that's a compromise I'm willing to make with her. You know, I sometimes think about if I could go back to when that whole getting low on the start line first started and held a firmer line on it, then would it have turned out different?
But you know, it's been three years since then. , um, and it is okay with me if she wants to be in like, sort of like a semi down on the start line, if that is what's comfortable for her. As long as I still get what I need, which is just the faith that she's going to stay where I put her. . . Exactly. . Um, I, I think that's totally fair.
Like the position isn't what's important in that behavior, it's that she needs to stay put mm-hmm. and she needs to know the difference between this is when I [01:00:00] stay put and this is when I go mm-hmm. , and I don't think we necessarily have to put our energy into that perfect position. Mm-hmm. , but So you saw it get lower Yeah.
At that events. That was right. That was what was fascinating to me is. , um, cuz the previous event was the West Coast open. Well, and I should say, so we kind of went into this fall schedule of like what you refer to as like a post-season. Yeah. Where I had the West Coast open this trial in Colorado, the US Open and then EO trials.
Like that was, that was our trial schedule. . Yeah, that was, it was a big , big task of fall. Um, and kind of critically to why that matters is you're not allowed to do F E O or fix and go at the West Coast Open or [01:01:00] the US open and you don't want to be doing that at the EO tryouts. So this was the whole point, this was the vinyl exam
Exactly. Um, and I've looked back at my videos from the Les Post Open and. What we were getting then was still like a mostly upright sit. It's not like a perfectly upright sit, but it was a sit, it was obviously a sit. And then it was like very sudden that I went to Colorado and all of a sudden I had what was mostly a down, like I'm li putting, like she's coming through my legs and sitting.
And then just within the first couple steps as I would leave, she would just get into her, we'll call it a down . Um, but the Hiin pause were mostly not moving. So there was one repetition, one run at that trial in Colorado where a hiin moved, [01:02:00] like a centimeter that you saw on the video afterwards. Okay, good.
Like there's no way that you would ever see. Right. Y you know, I, there's no way, even if I had been staring at her like a hawk, I would never have been able to know, did she really just move her hiin paw? Did she just twitch like I would not have known? Um, but yes, because I had the video set up behind her later , I was able to see, oh, like a hiin paw moved and then have a panic attack about it.
Yeah, I remember that. Mm-hmm. . Um, and of course it, I remember having kind of thoughts of like, this is like the worst possible time for this to happen, . Uh, like I don't have any time left to fix it. Like I don't have a trial that I can just insert to go and do some f e o runs before we go to the US Open.
And then my other kind of thought process was kind of of [01:03:00] these two minds of like, you know, at some point we had talked about that the goal here is. to not have to obsess over her start line for the rest of her life. . Yeah. Like at some point we want this to graduate to like, where it's not really any different from the rest of her behaviors.
Like just kind of trust it to go Right. Because it does . Um, so with that in mind, you know, I'm thinking, I remember you, you made a comment when we were still in doing the one-on-one coaching about training the behavior that was resilient and robust enough that you might see some fluctuations, you know, but it has a strong enough reinforcement history to mostly to tend to recover.
Yes. Um, and and I remember not expecting her to be a robot. Right. . And I was [01:04:00] lucky enough to have an example in my head, which is like her stopped dog walk and her stopped teeter. are so reliable and consistent that like if she's, if she happens to self-release off the dog, walk in a run, I'm just like, well that was weird , but I don't freak out about it.
Yes, exactly. Um, so with that in mind, when I started seeing these changes to like kind of fluctuations in the behavior, I was like, obviously I don't want to just watch this roll down a slippery slope into disaster again, like what happened in 2021? But maybe that's not what's happening here. Maybe this is kind of where we've reached this point where there can be some fluctuations and some variation, but the concept and the reinforcement history is strong enough that it's all going to gravitate back towards the [01:05:00] same reliable performance.
Yes. But that was like a kind of a leap of faith because honestly, and I still believe this, when you're out there gathering data at a trial, the, the answer really is nobody knows what, which one of those things is happening. All you can do is hypothesize, . That's the game. Yeah. Which is really hard when you've invested so much energy and effort into this thing that is really vital and
It's really hard. Well, if it were easy, would either of us be interested? , no , right? Like if it was just so, like, it was just easy and like, okay, yep. Okay. This is perfect now, and it never challenges me and I never have to do anything interesting with it ever again. Mm. Boring. . Yeah. [01:06:00] But you, if you are observing, I think you can, you can start to tell the difference pretty.
Mm-hmm. quickly. Because I think if it's, generally speaking, if it's kind of just those natural fluctuations in behavior, there may be they're not consistent, they're kind of different all the time. Mm-hmm. and like, versus a slippery slope, it's usually this a similar variation. It just gets bigger and bigger and bigger until it's an actual problem.
Mm-hmm. . Yeah, that's true. I mean, like when I look back at the path that we were on in 2021 when this was not falling apart, it was, it was like the same error happening time after time and just becoming more and more exaggerated. . Right. She had to say it a little bit louder each time. and then, yeah. I mean, I think this is where.
having really good observation skills and, [01:07:00] and loving, obsessing over the observation of what is happening is really serves me well. . Yeah, because it's even little things like I, when I look back at her runs from EO tryouts, like there's, I can't see her start line very well in all of, all four of those runs.
Cuz four-legged flick was picking the ankle, not me, . Um, but in the, in one that I can, I can see like, okay, her hi pause moved in that repetition, but they moved backwards, not forward. Oh, interesting. . So it's like she, so to me it's like I just look at it again, it's all hypothesis, but I look at a detail like that and think this is different than what was happening before.
Yeah. Like she is moving her hiin pause while she gets back into what she considers her launch position . Um, which is fine with me. I'm like, if [01:08:00] that's the position you wanna launch from, that's cool. Just stay where I put you . Exactly. I think that that is a very fair trade off. Yeah. Especially, you know, just do this one little thing and then you get to do all these super fun things.
I think it, it works out in the end. Yes. So overall mm-hmm. gold goal achieved. What are we looking at here? Did we do it? Yes. I, to me it's like a hundred percent. It's like unquestionable that we did, we did the thing, so I. to kind of go back a little bit, I contacted you before World Team Tryouts. Yes. Um, and I'm pretty sure I told you, I'm pretty sure the start line is completely gonna fall apart at World Team Tryouts, but we'll just fix it afterwards.
mm-hmm. . And that's what happened. [01:09:00] Um, her, I mean, I just had no real lead out. So I remember thinking that world team tryouts, like the number one thing I would like to change before we go to EO tryouts, which is our, which was our real target for the whole year, is that I wanna be picking my lead outs based on what actually I, what I actually believe to be ideal.
Not on what do I think I can't get out away with . Right. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah. Um, so from that perspective, . Um, not only did I, you know, EO tryouts is only four runs, so not only did I, was I able to do that for all four runs at EO tryouts, but we also had 11 runs at the US Open where I was able to do that.
Right. That whole string of fall events. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. I don't think even if you move it back and count the West Coast open and the Colorado trial, I actually went back and looked at my records because I'm a nerd [01:10:00] like this to say that was 35 4 competition runs in a row, Wow. Without any f e o or fix and go in there and that's a lot.
Yeah. And I would say that I picked every single one of those lead outs based on what I thought was the ideal lead out, not on is she gonna stay? Ah, I love it. Um, yeah, so from that, and this is something where I, this is like a nerd point for me, but it's like, to me, , that was really important not to identify success by like, is she sitting upright or like by those kind of details.
Yeah. But like the success by like what is actually really important here. So, um, brilliant. Yeah. The other thing that was big for me at the US Open, because that was, um, we had a total of 11 runs, [01:11:00] and that was a big step for me. So that was of course right after the Colorado trial where I had hypothesized that this, these variations I was seeing were okay
Um, and it was fine. It was gonna be fine. And then at the US Open, I actually collected some data about that that was true. Like there were some variations that happened. , but it rebounded. Uh, like it just always kept kind of rebounding back to the normal behavior, what I was considering, like the normal behavior.
Um, and that's a big step forward in this. Like, like I said earlier of the goal is not to just obsess over her start line for the rest of our career together, but to just have a functional behavior that serves us , right? Yeah. One that you can rely on, that she can rely on, that doesn't cause any fighting or conflict [01:12:00] or stress sniffing, not about those very small details that no one cares about.
Mm-hmm. . . Yeah. And I, there was one run at the open which required a really long lead out. It was like, I think it was master series jumpers. I mean, it was like, you need a three jump lead out that's, across the, I mean, it was basically like a straight line across the whole diagonal of the ring . Right. Um, and that's probably, I think the longest lead out of any of those 35 runs
Yeah. And I heard so many people stressing about it. Um, I heard so many people out there like, I know I need to get out to this point. I just don't know how I'm going to, and I, I mean, I just trusted that she was gonna stay. Um, when I analyzed the video after the fact, it's fascinating [01:13:00] to me. That was like the furthest I'd ever gone from her before turning around or reconnecting.
And she absolutely did this little scoot when I reconnected. Mm-hmm. , but she didn't actually release, you know, and then I released her and we went on with our run and it was all fine. But in my head, as I'm analyzing that after the fact, the way I processed that is just kind of like, If that happens when I have to go like really, really far away from her, it is fine because it's still functional and then, you know, like the ne very next run, when the lead route is shorter, it's right back to the same performance that I would expect to see.
Yes. With her, I'm not getting that little scoot and I, you know, it's like if, if I'm gonna get a tiny little scoot when I have to run halfway across the ring before I release her, I'm okay with that . It's, it's going to be okay. And you can also train for that, right? Like this is mm-hmm. [01:14:00] You know? Yeah. We're only how many months into this project mm-hmm.
And it's not something that you have to obsess over and spend every training session working on the start line anymore. It's just now in a maintenance mode like any other behavior. But that also means you can progress it so you know the position changes. Mm-hmm. with you an entire ring, uh, around That sounds fine.
you can progress to that. You can train for that. Yeah. Because if that's the trend that we're going to have in the courses, then we'll be prepared for it. Yeah, that is definitely part of, like my long-term plan is kind of, I, you know, obviously I don't wanna be spending all of my training sessions on start line or even like half of my training sessions on start line, but for me, I'm okay with forever and [01:15:00] ever.
Having like one or two sessions on this kind, this stuff, supporting and building and continuing to strengthen this behavior like for the rest of her career. That's fine with me, . Um, and so these things of like continuing to build the position changes or the release behind, you know, to greater distances and more of my, like more speed from me as I'm running, like those are all things that are on my list.
It's like, not like I'm just gonna let it go. , right? Mm-hmm. , but it doesn't have to take up the top priority in your training projects. It's n it's trained right? And it's usable. And it's functional and you will continue to listen to Z and what she says is easy. Mm-hmm. and what she says isn't mm-hmm. and you'll, you'll just continue to help that be easy for her.[01:16:00]
Mm-hmm. . Awesome. Is there anything else that you want to share about this project or any advice you'd like to give to the listeners? There is one more thing that I was just thinking as you were saying that last piece, which, um, it goes back, I mean, it goes back to this theme that we've been talking about, about trying to make this very difficult thing easy for her or easier for her.
And I think something that's really important to me as we've gone through this whole project is respecting how hard this was for her . Like when, when she told me like, this is really hard, I can't do it. Like picking her word for it and respecting that. Right. You know, I think I all the time see dogs out at agility trials that have start lines that I know didn't take.
A fraction of the amount of [01:17:00] work that I've put into the start line . Right. And they're, they're beautiful and functional. And, and the way I look at that is, um, it's not up to me to decide like what's easy or hard for my dog. Like, she told me that this is really, really hard. And, um, it wouldn't serve me or her at all for me to like, think that it shouldn't be hard for her or think that it isn't hard for her and she's just being naughty or any kind of variation of whatever.
Some one might think about that. It's just like for me to take her at her word and be like, I, I hear you. I hear that this is really, really hard for you and I'm gonna respect that and, and treat it with some reverence because I really appreciate the effort and the willingness for that. She's like, that she is trying really, really hard for me and has [01:18:00] through this whole training process and I really respect that
Um, yeah. And wow. And that kind of fits into my long-term training plan in a way. One of the things that I think about is I am not gonna ask for this carelessly , which does influence how I train, because when I'm out there doing coursework, um, I really try to avoid asking for the start line if I know that I might need to ask for this starting point a couple times to, to practice the thing that I wanna practice.
Or if I know that it's like there might, like, it's likely that there's gonna be some errors, I'm not gonna use her start line in that situation. Yeah. Because it's just not fair right ex because it is so hard for her and so precious. and not doubling up on hard [01:19:00] things if you don't have to. Yeah. So I, the approach that I've sort of started to take when I am doing coursework stuff is I usually wanna go out there and at least use the start line once so that I have an opportunity to put some value in the bank for that performance that I wanna see, or potentially to center back to a toy or a leash.
If I see some anticipatory behavior that I don't wanna see, like I wanna have those opportunities in training, but I wanna do them when that's my focus. And then when my focus is shifting to this handling that I wanna practice, I don't wanna bring a start line into that. Um, and to me, I feel like that's gonna be really important in the long run.
I, I agree. And I'm the same way. I don't wanna have to choose between my. Agenda items. I want [01:20:00] to be able to train the thing that I want to train freely without bringing potential conflict into the picture. Yeah. And I think to me, I always think this is something from back in my horsey days, I remember somebody telling me, or me reading, I don't remember how I came across, across this piece of information, but in the horsey context, it was really like when the horse tells you that they're scared of this, you don't get to tell them that it's not scary.
Like Right. you, you do get to help them understand that it's not scary, but you don't get to just tell them that they're dumb. Right. You're wrong . Right. And so I think about, that's what I think about with her start line is I don't get to just tell her that this should, this isn't hard or that it should be easier for her.
It's like she told me that it's this hard and. I will therefore operate as if it is [01:21:00] because that's what she told me. . I think that that is the only way to move forward and something i, I definitely admire in you as a trainer that you wholeheartedly, and I throw yourself at that with her opinions in mind.
Yeah, yeah. It's so like, pivotal to the relationship that I wanna have throughout this whole adventure is like that. Her opinions matter to me. . Yeah. I, I think everyone will appreciate hearing that and it will resonate with them as well. But I think, did we do it? I think we did . Okay, thank you. I think we might have overdid it, but it's okay.
Well, you know, it, it's, it's okay everyone. [01:22:00] I, I will, I enjoyed it. I, I hope you enjoyed it, uh, and I hope the listeners will enjoy it. So thank you so much for being here today. Sarah, where can people find you? Should they want to follow your training and they do want to, they all want to . So the place to find me online, I have a Facebook page.
It's called Agility Odyssey, and that would be the place to come follow z and I. Perfect. And I will make sure to link that into the show notes. Thanks again, Sarah. Thank you so much.
Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, there are several ways you can leave me positive reinforcement. One, leave me a five star review. Two, share with your fellow agility nerds, or three, share your thoughts with me on social media. Be sure to follow at FX agility on [01:23:00] Facebook or Instagram.
